User login

Fanning the fire....

Just to add fuel to that particular fire here on this site too :P

Why do people use two spaces after a period ?? WHEN THEY ARE USING A VARIABLE WIDTH FONT

and not a fixed width font !!!!!!

I cannot stress this enough! Back in the day when fonts had nothing to do with computers and mostly just type writers, every character had a fixed width of space that it would occupy, on a typewriter this was the width of that tiny stamp arm that slapped the page each time you hit a key. Thus started the practice of formatting text with two spaces after a period

Today, in the age of the iPhone every where you type something, you do it on a PC of some sort, and you have options... If you are using a fixed width font like Monaco, sure go ahead and keep adding your two spaces. because a comma will take up just as many pixels as an 'M'
including the empty space around it. BUT if you're using a variable width font, which most are these days, Arial, Times New Roman, then the two spaces practice is not necessary anymore. IT IS ALL DONE AUTOMATICALLY! in pretty much every text editor

You can keep being stubborn and believe what you want, but you'll be wrong, and people will stop talking to you.. well, maybe not, but you'll be wrong!

Comments

This is an incredibly ignorant post from a web developer

You are wrong about all your facts, and it is of such vital importance that all periods at the end sentences be followed with two commas that it doesn't matter anyway, it must be done.

And of course the situation isn't just worse, it's insanely horrible in the web development world, because two spaces after a period or exclamation point will be COMPLETELY IGNORED!!!!  Unless you put in a no break space in like I did.

So if every text editor and such can do this so easily, write a Drupal input filter that will format all posts' content to have two spaces after sentences, whether or not the person writing had the HONOR and DIGNITY to type two spaces.

Oh, and you're just like Hitler.  But you thought that first.  So you lose!  Twice!

and who the hell puts two

who the hell puts two commas after a period anyway? who does that? seriously?

Like I said, fanning the

Like I said, fanning the flames....

My only mistake was that I said text editor instead of word processor. Just check your favorite one, M$ Word, whatever.... IT IS PART OF THE DESIGN TO SPACE CHARACTERS CORRECTLY!!! do you seriously think that a word processor is just a computerized typewriter?! If so, then why do two l's next to each look closer together in Times New Roman, and far apart in Monaco?

Hmm?

BECAUSE ONE IS VARIABLE WIDTH AND THE OTHER IS FIXED !!!

I won't resort to name calling because I know I am right ;)

http://www.webword.com/reports/period.html
(and in case you are too lazy (or too stuck in the past) to click this link (which can happen to those whose minds have been twisted by two spaces :P ) here's an excerpt)

One of the next things I realized is that, in general, the spacing after a period will be irrelevant since most fonts used today are proportional. That is, each character is not the same size. Amy Gahran of Contentious kindly indicated that very few monospaced (i.e., non-proportional) fonts are used today on the Internet, except for perhaps Courier. This is generally the case offline as well. Proportional fonts are used much more often. For your information, I did not get any good feedback about the various fonts that are used for other Internet applications and activities, such as chat rooms and email. My guess is that they are mostly monospaced, but it is just a guess.

Like Amy Gahran, Kathy Gill told me that the current typographic standard for a single space after the period is a reflection of the power of proportionally spaced fonts.

"The only reason that two spaces were used after a period during the 'typewriter' age was because original typewriters had monospaced fonts -- the extra space was needed for the eye to pick up on the beginning of a new sentence. That need is negated w/proportional space type, hence [it is] the typographic standard."

While I'm on the topic, here's what one of the folks at The Design & Publishing Center had to say about the history of typographic spacing:

"In the days of typewriter manuscripts the extra space was necessary to separate the ends and beginnings of sentences. The space character never changed. With the advent of electronic typesetting, the software attempts to 'fit' the type to specific line lengths, it both expands or contracts the available space to make the type fit. Word spacing is where most of this space 'play' takes place."

This same writer went on to tell me that the use of two spaces is visually distracting, and can be a typographic design danger:

"With two spaces, there is 'more' space to play with, and if space is added (which is most often the case) the results are white spots, and in some cases "rivers" of blank spots in the body of text. This makes the body both unattractive as a visual element, and distracting to read."

Many people told me about the various rules and style guides they follow. Similarly, several people indicated that etiquette is an important consideration for spacing after a period. Apparently, the vast majority of these guides tell writers to use a single space. From what I am told, very little reason is given for this stylistic requirement. However, this doesn't mean that folks like David Siegel, writer of the popular Creating Killer Web Sites, isn't fanatical about using a single space. In short, the "rivers" of whitespace, caused by using two spaces, invariably annoy graphic designers and typographers. Well, at least the ones that contacted me.

AND,

to all those '2 spacers' out there --> familiarize yourself with the term 'kerning' you need to, trust me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerning

and it's coming to browsers soon too, although slowly and it's crap right now --> http://opentype.info/blog/2008/06/14/kerning-and-opentype-features-in-firefox-3/


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.

~John Kenneth Galbraith

How dare you!

We use the two spaces after a period (as well as the question mark, exclamation point, and colon, mind you) because it's proper. I grew up the son of a legal secretary, and she beat into my being the tao of typing. Ever present on the computer desk was a copy of the Secretary's Handbook. The same reason we use complete words instead of text-messaging shortcuts like "lol" "idk" or "nvm". It's the same reason we take the time and effort to punctuate properly. It's the right thing to do. Oh, and just so you know, even though it won't show up in the comment, I'm double-spacing my periods as we speak.

HTML doesn't support the double-space after a period, but that's because it's lazy. The second space is ignored. To achieve the proper affect, you'd need to use two non-break spaces, which is clunky as hell. BUT, I DARE you to go into some word processor and on one line type "Hello. World" with one space, and on the next line type "Hello. World" with two spaces and I tell me there's no difference. You'll see it. I just did it in OpenOffice and yes, there IS a difference.

Consider the flames fanned, my friend.

you misunderstood me

"I grew up the son of a legal secretary, and she beat into my being the tao of typing. Ever present on the computer desk was a copy of the Secretary's Handbook."

times change my friend. 'river' effects are just one of many reasons...

AND THIS IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT

I never said that there would not be a difference if you add two spaces in openoffice as opposed to one. you misunderstood my post. What I said was word processors have KERNING, check your openoffice, you can even set the word processor kerning setting, as in IF YOU LIKE, YOU CAN HAVE THE WORD PROCESSOR ADD TWO SPACES AFTER A PERIOD AUTOMATICALLY!!!!! thus negating the need to actually TYPE TWO SPACES!!! Usually kerning is set to a little more than the width of one space. but not for fixed width fonts, like courier, only truetype fonts which store the specific information on spacing.

In the end you can believe what you want, it really doesn't matter to me. People are resistant to change, it's nothing new for a long time everyone stubbornly thought the earth was the center of the universe, that the earth was flat, etc. I am not really that passionate about this subject, I just think it's funny how so many people are :P

.

If word processors and more importantly web pages

automatically added two spaces, we wouldn't need to fight for this.  The small spaces used in variable width fonts, taking up less than a full letter-space, make it more important that sentence endings be demarcated with two spaces.

Worse, cell phone text messaging automatic capitalization gets confused when you use two spaces, when of course using two spaces instead of one makes sentence endings clearer.  Fools.

We live under the thumb of the oppression of the lazy one-spacers.

Lol! Seriously though,

Lol! Seriously though, things usually progress and improve as time goes on. Cars become more efficient, people invent planes and stuff... do you have a problem with the phone automatically replacing "cant" with "can't" or automatically capitalizing the letter i, etc?

I mean, in the age of the android and iphone do you really think it's necessary to press a space button twice when you can just press it once and have the software know the circumstances and context of the space??

Are we really supposed to use typeset rules developed during the age of the typewriter on an iphone? Seems like a simple case of clinging to the ways of the past to me...

Btw, this comment was written on my android while walking in downtown Natick, I'd like to see you do that with one of your precious typewriters ;)

In the interest of

In the interest of togetherness and not turning this into another polarizing issue in the world, there really is no right and wrong here, just opinion. Many people out there probably agree with me, and I am sure many people disagree...

I have read many threads (this is a decent one --> http://typedesk.com/2005/07/14/the-double-space-debate/) about this subject and pretty much all of them end up with angry posts and a lot of name calling, let's not go there, it's not worth fighting over.

I originally wrote this post just to officially state my opinion on the matter, that is all. You are free to believe whatever you like.

there should only be ONE

there should only be ONE space. we are not using typewriters, folks!
get with the friggen program!

only people i know who use 2, are much older and learned on a typewriter.
face it, things change- ESPECIALLY technology.

get over it.

Post new comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
  • You may post code using <code>...</code> (generic) or <?php ... ?> (highlighted PHP) tags.
  • You can use Markdown syntax to format and style the text. Also see Markdown Extra for tables, footnotes, and more.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
  • Allowed HTML tags: <a> <em> <strong> <cite> <code> <ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd> <img> <blockquote> <small> <h2> <h3> <h4> <h5> <h6> <sub> <sup> <p> <br> <strike> <table> <tr> <td> <thead> <th> <tbody> <tt> <output>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.

More information about formatting options

By submitting this form, you accept the Mollom privacy policy.